Talk:Iku Nagae
Frame Data lost?? Why was Iku's frame data removed when updating the normal moves to the table format? The same seems to have happened to Yukari, and probably to other characters that didn't have the frame data in a separate section as well. This is *VERY* important information, and I believe it needs to stay displayed in the page, with a column of its own in the table, even if slightly incorrect due to 1.10 changes (should have a "1.03 values" warning). brocoli 17:11, February 2, 2010 (UTC) :Probably lost it due to the transferring. If anything, it's still in the history at least, so it's not TOO bad. Can just go through there and add those back if needed. Problem is though, is how would we fit it into the tables? x_x Xenomic 18:00, February 2, 2010 (UTC) ::Actually, thinking it back, maybe it is best to revert it to the a footer table format (like in Reimu's page). I was looking at the history, and the framedata was weird: it used the format "| Frames: 53, 21,6,26 |", which didn't describe enough and was also confusing =/. Also, in Reimu's page, the Untech frames are also missing. brocoli 14:39, February 4, 2010 (UTC) :::Yeah, I didn't understand a single bit of that frame data at all. And I didn't know there was Untech frames either. As for making it a footer table like that....would it be exactly like that table in Reimu's page or would it just include the data not in the table?? Xenomic 19:22, February 4, 2010 (UTC) :: Frames: total, startup,damage,recovery. By the way, brocoli, sorry, but I think some of the informations you stated on this article are invalid. Mind to check it again? (some of it: pushback on wrongblock doesn't exist anymore on Soku. 66B lvl5 is nice, but fails against anyone with hitbox at least as short as Marisa, and they willl dash instead, pushing you and thus interrupting the spellcard (the spell still continue, with bullets spread anywhere on the screen), LandCancel resets is not a bad way to do a reset, but it's not that perfect, either, as a blocked 5B is better of hjc.789 j.123D'ed for a reset rather than hjc-ing and then do j.5A, doesn't matter which one out of j.6D or j.3D you're using. So, LandCancel is not the only method) And oh, sorry, I'm not making a new discussion because this isn't a big thing >_>. But I will make one if the discussion gets longer or someone asks me to >_>.FearNagae 08:51, February 5, 2010 (UTC) ::: Sorry about the giant post here, but they are three points which I believe are important. :::That's what I meant about this frametdata format, it doesn't provide enough information for more advanced players, and is confusing for newer players. For example, the Earliest Cancel and Untech are missing, and what about attacks with multiple activation frames, or the frame advantage? I thought about the following format, but I think that it then becomes too big, hence, I think it is best to have a footer table. (I'm not 100% sure about the untech frames, but it is either that or the Limit% also works as some kind of juggle modifier, which would be very weird.) :::Damage: X | Proration: X | Limit: X | Hits: X :::Frames: Total,(EC); Startup,Active1,Idle1,Active2 ... ActiveN,Recovery;Untech,Frame_Adv_Right,Frame_Adv_Wrong :::Comments :::''-- brocoli 16:39, February 5, 2010 (UTC)'' :: Ah, yes, I think I will add more informations >_>. As for about combos getting harder by every hits, it's due to proration, and limit actually doesn't have anything to do with it. Frame Advantage are usually counted by subtracting the blockstun with your recovery frame from that move (highjump or not should be stated). FearNagae 06:52, February 7, 2010 (UTC) :::So proration affects some hidden juggle timer too? I thought it only scaled down the damage. And about frame advantage, what about the advantage on wrongblocks? Do wrongblocks always add the same amount of blockstun? brocoli 13:45, February 19, 2010 (UTC) Iku Pressure Discussion @FearNagae: You're right about the wrongblock pushback, It thought it still existed, only was much smaller than before o_O, should've tested this throughfully. Also, I had to write that text relatively fast, so it is bound to have some mistakes in it; but I had to start something, as the article only talked about bullets, and overestimated the 5C loops (which are the worst kind of pressure for Iku, as if you abuse this you'll just start to eat one OBE after another). 66B lvl5 was just an example I thought of on the fly to demonstrate how a rightblock could be useful, but even for that it makes no sense (66B is a bullet, it can't be wrongblocked). However, while it is a bad gimmick in 1.10 because of the lvl5's spirit damage nerf, it did work on 1.03. Only Sakuya and Marisa with their low dash hitbox could avoid it, as the other characters were GC'd or hit later by the type 2 bullets if they tried to dash or graze attack. Now that wrongblock pushback doesn't exist, an example is not even required. Thanks for pointing it out =) *editing it*. Finally, yes it is best to hjc.789 j.123D after a blocked 5B in the corner. The problem is getting the blocked 17f startup 5B in the first place. In my experience everyone just grazes through it on reaction since there's plenty of time, any HJC out of 5B will then let them go under Iku and exploit this hole in her arsenal (except for Okuu), Iku's melee skills are reactable with block out of dash (again except for Okuu) and are frame disadvantageous, a fast Okuu player can react to it with her 5f startup and good ranged 5A in both scenarios, and not cancelling the 5B is even worse. I have seen 6C HJC7/9 j.2D 3A working, but it then locks you again since you used 3A. I know that LC pressure is not "the best kind of pressure", it is just another weapon that complements the other ones, it is a hard setup and spirit costly technique that can deal well with both BEs and escapes (by the way, HJC j.5A is a very bad way to try to start one), so it is as good as a stagger and bullets combined pressure. Card pressure is the best kind of pressure in HTS, having a Reisen card ready will effectively make them think twice before dashing through 5B, etc... I do believe this discussion is important, because we'll need all the pieces we can get to make something comprehensive out of Iku's flawed pressure =/ ...that and we'll also need notes on okizeme -_- ''-- brocoli 16:39, February 5, 2010 (UTC)'' : Well, every other character that doesn't get airtight'd by 66B lvl5 is safe to dash and push you >_>. Yes dashing works, because it will push Iku and spread the bullet all over the screen and the bullets won't eat orbs that much and saves them. And 1.10 didn't change the hitbox size, as I tried the same thing before >_>. : hjc.789 j.123D after a grazed 5B doesn't let them pass under Iku. But that's not the case, I would not j.123D if the opponent graze my 5B and instead do a j.4D and j.2A land f.5A and continue string. Although 5B is not that slow to be easily grazed on reaction. Why would you 3A after landing o_O ? 3A is probably the worst idea, the first thing is that it's not the fastest melee Iku have out there, the second is 3A cannot be chained into anything else, and, well, the opponent can highjump or even hit you instead because 6C isn't an amazing blockstun tool. I would pressure the opponent by keeping some range instead, as it would give better control of the opponent's movement. As for 5C loop, I think I have to agree, and I would usually continue with a 2A 6A 6C a.236B (Thunder Punch) or something after a blocked 5C. And a.236B can be chained with hjc.9 j.6C for a tight string in the corner. : As for Oki, 5C, a.214BC, or even melee seems to work nice. : Got any replays of your games, by the way? It would be nice to see you play ^_^ FearNagae 16:59, February 6, 2010 (UTC) : :: I leave replays on auto-record, so I might find something of interest here if I dig enough xD. Haven't played seriously in a while though; recently I've mostly tested new stuff (i.e. I have seen some japs using Iku's b236B to keep the corner pressure on nicovideo... but I don't understand yet if it is not possible to just mash Iku while she's dancing). :: However, I only see a236B HJC9 j.6C useful in starting an air to ground string like (j.66 j.5A j.6C)x2 LC(reset), and maybe mix in a j.5Bs in the middle instead of j.5A to make it cost-efficient, but this fails against many crouching characters, not to mention a236B HJC9 j.6C is in itself easily BE-able, maybe even OBE unsafe against some characters with good DPs or graze attacks. :: About 2D 3A, I saw that on a nicovideo replay only once, it was a little gimmicky. Anyway, 3A is better than the other melee in some aspects: it has a better hitbox, lowers Iku's own hitbox more, and you can chain it into 5B (nearly point blank) and 2B (a little less range dependant) with a corner wrongblock, just like 6A (but 6A's wrongblock is low, meaning they wont eat all the bullets, and 6A's range is shorter and doesn't move Iku forward as much); and should they block right you can always 6C. 2A on the other hand doesn't have these options, even on wrongblock. The only alternatives out of 2A are another 2A (which will put you out of 6A and 5AA range, and can be escaped by jumping), 6A/3A (which you'll have to fish for a wrongblock without the surprise element this time... and you may already be out of 6A's range), d/a236B or 6C/5B b236B (d236 has to be on level1 against some chars and stops the pressure, a236B is BEable, b236B is like I said before), and the cost-inefficient 6C. Anyhow, Iku's cardless corner pressure strings tend to come down to getting this crucial 6A/3A wrongblock, to then 5B and reset the string safely. brocoli 13:45, February 19, 2010 (UTC) :: Despite a236B being pretty easy to BE, it can also be highjumpable pretty fast! hj.9 j.44 j.2A/j.6A can still catch people, although usually ends pressure. But... yeah, it's still not pretty useful probably >_>. LC strings doesn't work without j.5A, and you can't LC j.6C if you place a j.5B before that j.6C. IMO 2D 3A could be useful depending on the situation; because it really isn't working at all if the opponent jumps. Yes 5B works, is tight on wrongblock, and even on rightblock, who is going to highjump during such pressure (unless used too much). I'd rather 5B instead of 2B all-day, unless the opponent crouch (range doesn't matter that much). But, the first problem with 3A is, why use instead of 6A? No, they give almost same pushback alone, and on moves Iku forward almost as much as well. And I believe right here 6A is better (less pushback, catches highjumps, etc.). The second, this isn't going to work unless the opponent guarded a B bullet, because outside that scenario the opponent isn't in enough blockstun and can, not only highjump, do a 5A instead. about 2A vs 3A, I believe this is just a matter of mixup, while 3A cannot continue with another melee, it sure works pretty good especially on wrongblock. 2A, however, while unable to tight out a 5B, can still 5B out of delaystring surprise. About dance 236B pressure, again, it must be mixed up, or else I think we're going to eat 5A. Anyway, I would like to see the niconico links and replays if available :D :: And I still believe Iku doesn't have a problem on pressuring, as we'll most likely rely on mixups o_O FearNagae 13:32, March 10, 2010 (UTC) Elekiter Dragon Palace Anyone agrees that Elekiter, which in Japanese is pronounced E re ki te ru, is actually Electrical in English? Makes sense to me. If it is indeed Electrical, I'll edit Elekiter to Electrical.Lucky Charat 08:47, February 26, 2010 (UTC) new combo I found a combo that does 100% limit. I'm not sure of the damage though. Anyway.... 5AAA 5B j.2A. It wont do 100% limit if only some of the 5B orbs hit. It's also a corner combo.